HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 16, 2011 Land Use Workshop Notes Land Use Work Group Meeting
November 16,2011
Attendees:Sue Davison, Mike Lamb, Kevin Staunton, Bruce Jacobson, Peyton Robb,Tony Shertler,Gene
Persha,Andy Brown, Kim Montgomery, Cary Teague, Ellen Jones,Thomas Rauchle
ML—presents 18 page handout
BJ—"what is the preferred mix of uses, district wide?"
"What is the potential phase 1"
KM—Did Jerry's make an offer to the School Board
PR—The District was offered the taxable value: $1 million. Family Physicians has also offered to purchase
in the past.
KM—Is there clean up?
PR—no;tanks are less than 10 yr old.
ML—how important is the School Bus site to the overall plan. Can the City enter into a MOA, right of
first refusal etc, so the City has a more formal agreement with the School District? Have there been any
relocation discussions with the City
PR—some discussions with the GM site. But now that building is filled. Adjacent site is available.
KM—is the 3 million $ relocation cost tied to anything
PR—it's a ballpark cost. Has heard of costs as low as $2.3.
PR—Storage and fleet would not fit on the PW site.
TS—does the School Board have a process in place to talk to the City about this issue.
PR—the School Bd.facilities studies and architects available.
T—Assume Bus Garage is solved and it becomes controlled by the City. What will that change?
TS—The Dist costs exceed the value. The gap can only be covered by a public entity. A redevelopment
authority would have the ability to hold the site and redevelop.
PR—would that change anything from the design POV
ML—offer flexibility to Jerry's . It would improve the parking and loading on South end of building.
BJ—allow Grandview to connect to Jerry's
TS—The Bus Garage is a barrier;the PW Site is an opportunity.
T-the School Bus Site would give us a chip to improve the front of Jerrys.
Jean—was there a fire
PR—yes; 600K settlement that has to be used. Can't be redirected.
KM—is there another way to incent Jerry to do what we want without spending 3 million on the
property.
ML—it gives the City control.
TS - must consider how competitive is the source of dollars. Cannot use TIF for vertical construction.
You can use it to remove blight.
PR—55 busses, 10 short ones
BJ—Relocating to the cloverleaf requires a discussion with MN Dot. Not sure keeping the busses in the
District is the right answer.
ML—the west side of the RR corridor are "go to" uses,the east side of the RR are "stay at" uses.
Reactions?
PS—the service aspect of this area is unique 1. Graphics all focus on the area between Vernon and Eden
;the properties north of Vernon are omitted. Concerned with the longevity of the service businesses in
the District. How do we keep those service uses.
T—is there something we can do, as a part of this process (zoning?)so we can preserve the service
orientation on the west side of the tracks.
KS—UPS store is in play; however Dry Cleaners is on a long term lease.
KS—lets think of It in terms of Eden and Vernon; not east and west.
T—suggest s the School Bus Site is a near term "go to" location
PH-sounds like we are talking about dividing, not joining the areas. Like the idea of service along
Vernon.
PS—is there an opportunity to encourage these uses to cluster.
ML—we are connecting, not separating the two areas. The stay at uses do not generate as much traffic
and trips as the go to uses.
BJ—liner building to parking ramp can have service uses—creating a two sided street.
ML-the Plan clips the corner of the Liquor Store
E-where is the "stay at" parking?
ML- under the Grandview Green.Accessed from Eden and Arcadia ;vertical circulation to bring you to
the Green and access to buildings.
E-Transit?
ML-587 on Eden. Corridor or arcade connecting Park and Ride to Eden. Other blocks would self park.
T- 1800 current parking spaces;500 on the PW Site; 20% increase
Sue-the organization and the location of them is more important than the number. When or how can
we look at the flow and circulation management and location of the parking in the Plan.
ML- Metro Transit claims some Park and hiders do so at the library.
KS—what are the set of options for Thursday night. Keep the Go to on Vernon? Keep Go to West of the
RR tracks? Bus Garage Site?
T-question the wisdom of locating the PandR in the middle of the site
KS- Park and ride Options: 1—in center; 2- in Cloverleaf; 3-keep the hide and ride.
BJ—we generally will not get more parking in the go to areas. However will add significant parking in the
stay at areas. It will be multi use and shared.
T- layered parking is incompatible with go to uses
KM-don't see any surface parking on page 10. Principle 10 talks about making it a good place to do
business.
BJ-there will be some surface parking east of RR;some on street parking. Service in rear. Or loading on
street at certain times.
E-What design factors will go into the new parking ramp—especially as they relate to safety?
ML—must be well lit, user friendly, and well signed.
E-50`h and France are above grade—thesew ill be below
T- parking underneath the West end is well lit, well marked
PR—however you lose your sense of direction and orientation because it is so large.
KS- ramp is the last option for my wife.
BJ-the design of the ramp and its lighting is a detailed design issue.
PR—I don't see any surface parking at all.
BJ—there will be some surface parking east of track—but not on the PW site
PR—I don't have a feel of what it will be like to use the go to businesses.
BJ- page 4—we are connecting the place. Creating crosswalks and sidewalks to connect the
neighborhoods to the businesses. Not changing the businesses,just the access to the businesses.
Stitching together the walkways.The library is lost in all the car oriented clutter. We are adding a small
amount parking, eliminating redundant roads and creating a small park that connects the Library to
Vernon.
TS—there is nothing in the vision that forecloses anything. New ideas can be plugged into this vision.
ML-service uses can be collected on the Bus garage site. Can we sign a three year lease to use the PW
site for Bus parking, on an interim basis,thereby getting the Bus Garage site developed.
PR—possibly—however the PW site building requires a few hundred thousand dollars of investment to
be used.
S—the value of the land is greater with out a building.
KS—how are we feeling about the Land Use Options?
5-we have not talked at all about the east side of the highway. Also keep in mind the surrounding
density and height.
PR—what are the benefits of change?
ML—multiple level issue. A mix of land uses balances traffic. The idea of having residents and owners
on Arcadia provides a level of safety and security and activity.
KS—need to be aware of the potential conflict between residential and public uses.
T-this suggest that residential should be east of Arcadia—not on the Park
MI—there is a residual effect of value by investing in the public realm.
E-consider the traffic effects of the land uses.
KM-the Library Plan eliminates some parking for Physicians building.
Jean—how can we increase safety of the parking ramps.
ML—parking garage would be open to the RR line.
E-Can we put the parking ramp on the south end of the site—along Eden.
ML—then the parking ramp would be expressed on Eden.
E—you'd have to make it look pretty.
T—but there is a limit
TS—you don't want your service and parking on a main street.
KM—can you do both. Can you see down into the parking from Arcadia?Or can some of the parking be
above ground so it feels safer.
TS-you can have design for public safety standards.
KS- it's a design issue—not a location issue.
ML—parking building on Eden with a green roof and a liner facing Eden.
Sue—can you send us information on good parking ramps -the design standards for public safety in
parking ramps.
KM—asked for an option,fully detailed,that includes a larger foot print—up to 150,000 sf. Community
Center that does not preclude the possibility of housing on the site.
Andy—what is the program of the Community center
T-we gave a program to the consultants
• 70,000 rec center—modeled after the Williston Center in Minnetonka
• 30,000 art center—Hopkins
• Several thousand sf for meeting space.
• Also had discussions about consolidation
potential.
Andy—if there is the perception of doubling up on existing assets,there will be push back
S—can the rest of the committee see the program Thomas is talking about?
T—will distribute.
KM—team will determine costs first,then potential sources of funding. Will create a potential pro
forma.
Andy—I have neighbors that would like nothing more than to show up at a CC meeting to argue so it is
important to do homework
E-the scope of the facilities study has become a Dome study.
KM-our groups recommendation for consolidation is in line with CC Josh's line of thinking.
J—if we had to build all this, can you determine how much tax revenue this would create?
TS—we can put together a ballpark ROI value for that.
E—what accrues the most amount of value
TS—I am measuring only gross value, not net.
KM—if a significant piece of this development is housing,then the Council may become alarmed
because our schools are maxed out.
KS—summary
• Go to, stay at
• Parking Facility aesthetics and safety
• Surface parking and loading
• Community space—small medium large
• Term sheet with the School District
• Residential uses and the potential costs.
Jean—Should the city consider buying out CSM,or other properties.
KM—the service business component is critical and can't be shaven off.
Land Use and Community Design
• Grandview Green size comparisons is not legible (re-do this)—(personal note, not a meeting
note)
• Jerry's and Med. Physicians offer
o $1M —taxable value
o Assumes site clearing/clean-up
o Bus garage site
• Relocation options...any preferred sites?
o $3Mi1 replacement costs ($2.3 Mil exclusive of land)
o Does not have to be co-located...
o Maintenance/wash/storage (heated)
• Is there another way to incent Jerry's to allow the North/South connection other than purchase
of bus site?
• Businesses north and West of Vernon
• Concern about losing more of the small service businesses
• Retain small service businesses
• Vernon is the 'go to' place
• Some new service business at the bus site
• Land use and zoning
• Residential density
• Parking ramp...aesthetics and safety
o This is a design detail
• 100—150,000 s.f. center option
o 70k Rec.
o 30k arts
o meeting rooms etc.
o Community push back possible
• County and city need to drive the "Reason"for changes at Highway 100
• What is driving those needs??
• Defend the closure in exchange for some improvements...
• May have some safety improvement money available!!!
• Potential matching dollars for pedestrian bridge crossing...maybe some met. Council
• Would tend to look at existing bridge improvements to accommodate peds.and bikes
• Ponding/SWM needs at the cloverleaf...need to fit this in
• Rationale for Ped. Bridge
Land Use and Community Design
• "Go To" and "Stay At" Uses
➢ "Go To"
■ Vernon West of 100?
■ West of RR (leave current Davanni's/CSM to convert to primarily"stay at" use consistent with
new traffic/circulation pattern)?
■ Bus garage?
➢ "Stay At"
■ East of RR?
■ Eden Ave and GrandView Crossing?
■ Bus Garage?
• Parking Facility—Aesthetics and Safety
❖ Surface Parking/Loading @ Davanni's/CSM
❖ Residential?
➢ On PW Site?
• Between Arcadia and Highway 100?
• Community Space
➢ Volume
■ Big (95,000 square feet)
■ Medium (50,000 square feet)
■ Small (25,000 square feet)
• Bus Transition
• OLG (Waner) Use
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