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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-07-11 Park Board MinutesEDINA PARK BOARD 7:30 p.m. July 11, 1995 MEMBERS PRESENT: Becky Bennett, Dave Crowther, Jim Fee, Beth Hall, Andrew Herring, Bill Jenkins, Andrew Montgomery MEMBERS ABSENT: Frank Bennett, Michael Burley, John Dovolis, Jean Rydell STAFF PRESENT: John Keprios, Ed MacHolda, Janet Canton, John Valliere OTHERS PRESENT: Jason S. Rice, Bob Ferris, Marion Ferris I. APPROVAL OF THE JUNE 13, 1995 PARK BOARD MINUTES Jim Fee MOVED TO APPROVE THE JUNE 13, 1995 MINUTES. Beth Hall SECONDED THE MOTION. MINUTES APPROVED. II. SENIOR DISCOUNT/BRAEMAR GOLF COURSE - JASON RICE. RESIDENT Mr. Keprios explained that Jason Rice, a resident of Edina for several years, asked that the senior discount at Braemar Golf Course be discussed. He indicated that the senior discount was eliminated in 1993. Mr. Keprios noted that Mr. Valliere is in the audience and then introduced Mr. Rice to the Park Board. Mr. Rice explained to the Park Board that he is not here as an adversary and does not want to be treated as one. It was noted that everyone received the memorandum that Mr. Valliere wrote in December of 1993. Mr. Rice explained that initially he received fees and charges, costs, and budgets from the Park and Recreation Department office because he was going to address that, however, cost isn't really the issue. He indicated that the action taken against the senior golfing members by eliminating the senior golf rates does not echo the sentiments for the majority of the citizens of Edina including the young and old. He stated that he would think most people would agree that it is morally wrong for anyone to pit one segment of our society against another, which is the old and the young in this case. He noted that Mr. Valliere stated in his memorandum that we can no longer ask the younger population to subsidize the older population. Mr. Rice stated that he was brought up to believe that the young are expected to take care of their old. He pointed out that he assumes what Mr. Valliere is saying in his memorandum is that it is okay to live in Edina as long as you can pay your way in full. However, if you can't do it after you retire you need to go someplace else and play golf because you are not welcome here. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice what is his point and suggestion. Mr. Rice stated that the point is let's get something back in place where it belongs. Mr. Rice pointed out that Mr. Valliere also stated that if golf were a necessity in his view it might be different. Mr. Rice indicated that he finds that interesting in view of the fact that the junior rates still apply. He noted that he's glad they do because he would not want to be part of any effort that would deny them of their right to learn to play golf. Mr. Rice indicated that if ever a game could be classified as a necessity, especially for the elderly to play, it is the game of golf. He noted that the AMA, PGA, LPA and MGA as well as numerous other organizations find that golf is the best therapy in life for a retired person. He also pointed out that it gives the senior golfer the opportunity to be able to play and mingle with the younger people which isn't easy for seniors to do these days. He asked that this not be taken away from them. Mr. Rice stated that to play a round of golf at Braemar costs $40.00, which includes a cart, and he feels this is not a fair price. He noted that they are not competitive with other golf courses in the metropolitan area. He pointed out that at Rich Acres in Richfield he pays $23.50 with a cart and that at Dwan Golf Course in Bloomington it's $32.00 for seniors. He noted he is fully aware of fiscal responsibility but along with that goes moral responsibility and it's not right to put the burden on the backs of seniors who can least afford it. Mr. Rice explained that what constitutes a senior program is to first of all set a realistic age limit of 60 to 62 years old. Mr. Rice stated that everyone may wonder why he is coming in three years later and he explained that if you get kicked in the teeth everywhere you go, you end up walking away with the feeling you don't want us and we don't want you. However, that's not right because two wrongs don't make a right. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice what his suggestion is and Mr. Rice noted this needs to be turned around. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice what he wants to see turned around and Mr. Rice indicated that he would like to see a senior discount rate program such as the one that is offered at Rich Acres. Mr. Rice explained that he has heart disease and arthritis. Therefore, he cannot walk for long periods of time and has a state card which indicates he needs a cart to play golf. He noted that it costs $20.00 for a cart. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice isn't it $10.00 because you would share the cost of the cart with someone. Mr. Rice stated that if he plays alone it's $20.00. Mr. Rice stated that to play 18 holes of golf at Braemar, it's $20.00 for the cart and $20.00 for a round of golf. Again, he stated that same game of golf at Rich Acres is $23.50. It's $10.00 for the cart and $13.50 for the game. The Park Board asked Mr. Valliere how much the carts cost at Braemar. Mr. Valliere stated that it's $20.00 and if it's one person it's $10.00, however, it is not advertised because it is too hard to police. Mr Rice expressed to Mr. Valliere that if he doesn't advertise it that means he doesn't offer it unless he is doing it for special people. He stated that Mr. Valliere is leading people to believe he offers a $10.00 rate and he doesn't. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice if he would like to see Braemar have a similar structure to that of Rich Acres or Dwan. Mr. Fee noted that he 2 just played the Wilds, which is a public course in Prior Lake, and paid $80.00. Mr. Fee then indicated that he doesn't think Rich Acres and Dwan is a fair comparison to Braemar. He noted that Braemar is listed as one of the top 75 public courses in the country where Rich Acres and Dwan aren't even on the map. Mr. Fee pointed out that what he is trying to say is that all golf courses are not equal and therefore do not charge equally. The better courses cost more money. There's a tremendous difference in the product. Mr. Montgomery asked isn't it fair to say that most courses have a junior, regular and senior rate. He feels that is what Mr. Rice is trying to say and he thinks that is generally true. Mr. Fee stated that he thinks that whole issue is becoming a lot more blended and that a lot of private courses and public courses are eliminating the senior discount. He also pointed out that many of the resort courses in Florida, Las Vegas and Phoenix do not differentiate between a senior and a non -senior. Mr. Rice noted that he disagrees with Mr. Fee because he does plays golf in Florida and they do offer a senior discount. Mr. Rice stated we are talking about a 6,000 yd. course and Mr. Fee indicated that we are talking about quality of product. Mr. Rice then noted that Rich Acres is as good of quality golf course as Braemar and Mr. Jenkins and Mr. Fee both disagreed with that. Mr. Rice then asked what does a rating have to do with product and what has it got to do with senior rates for senior citizens. Mr. Fee explained that the product costs more. Mr. Rice indicated that the golf course is a profit center and is not losing money. Ms. Hall stated that we have to make some money because there are a lot of expenses and therefore all money does go back into the golf course. Mr. Fee stated that we do not operate profit centers within the City of Edina. Mr. Keprios explained that Braemar Golf Course is an enterprise facility which means that typically all profits that are generated by that particular facility are reinvested back into that facility. Mr. Montgomery noted there cannot be a discount rate at all times because obviously the weekends are prime time. Mr. Rice indicated that he agrees there would have to be some restrictions on a senior discount. Mr. Rice again brought up the point that a senior citizen in Richfield gets a break from his golf course as well as at Dwan. Mr. Fee again stated that the product is not the same as Braemar. He stated those facilities don't have 27 holes, two executive nines and the clubhouse facility that Braemar has. Mr. Fee stated that you pay for what you get. Mr. Rice asked if what you are saying is true then why is there a junior rate. Mr. Fee noted that is on the executive course, not the main course. Mr. Valliere explained that juniors can purchase a multi - round pass which is 10 rounds for $75.00. Mr. Fee stated that's a package deal which he feels is different. Mr. Valliere indicated that he would like to explain a few things. First of all MAC, Metropolitan Airport Commission, has land that's involved with the Rich Acres Golf Course and they have two stipulations. First, that there be senior rate and secondly, that the City of Richfield cannot restrict a residency requirement for the purchase of patron cards because of the MAC profit. He also indicated that he just 3 checked with the course manager at Dwan and they do not have a senior rate. Mr. Rice stated that he just checked and it is $32.00. Mr. Valliere noted that he believes that is the fee to play golf. Mr. Valliere explained that some people have asked him to have physically challenged rates and Mr. Jenkins asked how would that be administered. Mr. Valliere noted that is the problem. If there was a flag on a cart for every handicapped or physically challenged person in one day there would be a flag on many carts and it would be hard to police. Mr. Rice indicated that when you go to the golf course to register as a senior you pay for that senior card. He noted that he pays $20.00 for his card at Rich Acres and in order to get the handicap rate he has to produce his state registration as a handicap person. There is no difficultly in policing this. Mr. Keprios explained to Mr. Rice that he does have a couple of options. First, he could request that the Park Board make a recommendation to the City Council for an immediate change in their fee structure. Another option could be to let the Park Board think about it and possibly make the recommended change in the normal procedures for fees and charges by a resolution. This procedure takes place at the November Park Board meeting and is then submitted to the City Council to establish the 1996 fees. Mr. Rice asked Mr. Keprios which way he thinks the motion would have a better chance of passing. Mr. Keprios indicated that his advice is to not force the issue tonight and let the Park Board think about it and address the issue at the November meeting. Mr. Jenkins stated that Braemar has three different nines, an executive course, a great clubhouse and you can play 18 holes for $16.00 if you are a patron. He feels this is a very fair rate. Mr. Rice agreed with that but stated he has a problem with paying $20.00 for a cart if it is just him playing. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Rice if his cart cost $10.00 and his round of golf cost $16.00 would he consider that a fair price. Mr. Rice stated that would be great. Mr. Jenkins then asked Mr. Rice if we were to advertise $10.00 for a single cart rate would he want to further pursue a senior discount beyond that. Mr. Rice noted that he has asked a lot of seniors and non -seniors and everyone agrees there should be a senior rate. However, he feels that $16.00 for golf and $10.00 for a cart is great. Mr. Keprios then asked Mr. Rice if he would consider this matter as resolved if the single cart rate is advertised and honored. Mr. Rice indicated that it's perfect and he couldn't ask for anything more. Mr. Jenkins thanked Mr. Rice for coming to the Park Board. Mr. Fee indicated this is completely contrary to what the City Council wants, because they want people to pay for what they use. Mr. Jenkins pointed out that he thinks Mr. Rice is okay with paying $26.00. Mr. Fee stated that paying $16.00 to play at Braemar shouldn't even be a conversation. Mr. Crowther asked Mr. Valliere if it is frequent that single people use carts. Mr. Valliere indicated that it is not frequent but the reason 4 they don't advertise it is because it becomes a policing problem. People start out as a single and will pick someone up on the course. Mr. Keprios asked the Park Board to give him and Mr. Valliere the opportunity to discuss this and make a suggestion for the 1996 fee structure. Mr. Jenkins stated that would be fine and asked that the Park Board also revisit the senior issue at that point. Mr. Crowther indicated that if there is a special deal for juniors it's hard not to address the senior issue. Ms. Bennett stated that she doesn't think the seniors are looking for a huge discount, but would like to be recognized that they do get a break and she doesn't think that is a bad idea. Mr. Valliere pointed out that the number of seniors at Braemar far exceeds the other golf courses that were mentioned. Mr. Fee asked if rounds also exceed the other golf courses and Mr. Valliere stated yes. Mr. Valliere explained that Mr. Rice doesn't realize this but he is already getting a discounted rate. He pointed out that in 1994 there was a $3.00 difference between the non -patron and patron. In 1995 it was increased because over time the percentage had shrunk and patrons now get $4.00 off. If we had recommended leaving it where it was it would be $20.00 and $17.00 with a $1.00 off for seniors. Therefore, he is right where he would have been and they really are getting a fair shake. III. EDINA SOCCER ASSOCIATION PROPOSAL UPDATE Mr. Keprios indicated that he met with Mr. MacHolda and three members from the Edina Soccer Association to discuss some alternatives as to how to resolve the soccer issue. He stated that the City Council asked staff and Park Board to seek other alternatives to resolve the matter. The Soccer Association recently voted unanimously at their July Board meeting to table the matter for 15 months. Mr. Jenkins asked how they came up with 15 months and Mr. Keprios explained that it will give the soccer program an entire season to see how it goes with Plan B, which may not require further involvement from the Park Board or the City Council. Mr. Keprios pointed out that he feels the matter has been temporarily resolved at the staff level. Mr. Keprios explained that Plan B will consist of the Park Department cutting the grass at the bandy field site at Lewis Park and having the U6 soccer program play on two fields that will be created going in an east/west direction. This would not eliminate the site for ice skating during the winter months. Mr. Fee stated that he knows it came as a surprise to Mayor Richards that the school fields were not available to the Soccer Association. Mr. Keprios noted that one of the alternatives that was discussed was possibly using the field between the Community Center and South View Middle School. He indicated that after talking to Steve Dove and the person who maintains the field, both feel strongly against us using it because it is the only small window of time that the field can rest. He explained that the field is used for junior varsity programs, marching band, and phy-ed classes. Mr. Keprios explained that he knows what it 5 takes to have good turf and he can respect that they need to rest their field as part of their maintenance program. Mr. Keprios noted that he talked to the Superintendent of Edina Schools, Dr. Ken Dragseth, and shared what he heard from the school staff. Mr. Keprios explained that it would not be his recommendation at this point in time to force the school to sway from their field maintenance program. In addition, it is a plus to not have to rely on the school for another field. Mr. Keprios stated that we already rely on them for two fields and the future availability of those are in question at this time. Mr. Keprios stated that he feels a lot of different options and alternatives have been looked at. He noted that it is staff's recommendation that we not take up any more park green space that isn't already an athletic field and turn into another athletic field. Mr. Jenkins asked how much the soccer field at Pamela is being used and Mr. MacHolda stated it is being used too much and pointed out that the senior field shows considerable wear. Mr. MacHolda explained that the Soccer Association has been disappointed with the condition of a number of fields due to excessive use. Mr. Keprios pointed out that if we can do a good job of providing adequate turf for the U6 program to play on, hopefully the program will be successful. He stated that, in his opinion, there is better turf at Lewis Park than what they are currently playing on at Weber, plus, there is adequate parking at Lewis Park. Mr. Keprios explained that a letter has been drafted to include in the football and soccer packets reminding people to not park on the private driveways and to use the parking lot. Mr. Keprios then indicated that he also has copied a letter that he wrote in response to some questions that people have asked. He pointed out that the Ferris' are here tonight and are interested in this issue. Mr. Ferris asked about the parking situation and Mr. Keprios stated that there is only so much the City can do short of putting up a fence. He indicated that it really becomes a private issue of the condominium association of putting up signs, towing people, etc. Mr. Keprios stated that we have and will continue to work cooperatively together on this issue. Mr. Ferris explained that his concern is you can't take a lighted field and use it for 5 to 8 year olds because eventually there are going to be tournaments at Lewis Park and there will not be enough parking space. Mr. Ferris indicated that they went through this a couple of years ago when there were two fields. He then asked if the Soccer Association has offered their $40,000 to the school district. It was indicated no. Mr. Crowther stated that at this point they are withdrawing their offer completely and he's sure that it is something they may look at in the future. Mr. Montgomery indicated that he doesn't understand why they are building a regulation field for 5 and 6 years olds. Is there something else they want the bigger field for. Mr. Keprios stated that for the Edina Soccer Association to program four U6 teams at the same time, they need the real estate equivalent to the size of a senior field. Ms. Bennett indicated that the field at Weber Park is very small and they've R changed it where it is now 3 on 3 and they've changed the whole dynamics of how the kids are learning to play in the U6 program. Mr. MacHolda stated that the fields are 20 yards by 30 yards and they do play 3 on a side which is the correct size field and the correct number of participants. He explained that with fewer participants the kids are able to touch the ball more and learn technique. Ms. Bennett stated that she is not questioning the technique but wanted to know why they needed such a big field. Mr. MacHolda indicated that it's not really the field they are looking for but it is the turf. He then pointed out all you really need is 50% of the space and also stated that you do not need the entire bandy rink for general skating. He stated that, if bandy were eliminated, it would be more than adequate space for general skating. Mr. MacHolda expressed that the Soccer Association is not looking to schedule tournaments at Lewis Park and pointed out there isn't even a traveling tournament in Edina. Mr. Herring indicated that there are two things that have come out of this issue that have bothered him. First of all, he didn't realize that there are two full-time people maintaining the bandy rink for a sport which has a limited number of Edina residents playing as well as they are only paying a $6.00 user fee. He stated that he considers this an unusually large amount of labor that is being dedicated to one rink. He noted that he recognizes the rink has a lot of appeal as an open sheet of ice in the community and doesn't want to minimize that. However, he pointed out that we have had to close other parks such as Strachauer, Todd, Garden and York because we do not have enough manpower. Ms. Bennett asked how many hours do the maintenance people put in at Lewis Park. Mr. Keprios explained that they put in 40 hours a week there. Mr. Herring asked how many maintenance men are there total who maintain the rinks. Mr. Keprios indicated that it's 12 or 13 men who maintain the 10 rinks. Mr. Herring noted that there seems to be an extraordinarily large number of people dedicated to one site. Mr. Herring stated secondly is the contrast between the cost of the Roseville bandy rink and our bandy rink. We are charging our bandy players $6.00 each and Roseville charges $170.00/hour. He indicated that this needs to be re-evaluated for a much higher fee if we are going to have a dedicated resource like this. Ms. Bennett noted that she thinks the bandy people indicated that they are willing to pay more to play. Mr. Herring also noted that he has a problem in that he understands the bandy program is difficult to administer and that a lot of management time is spent on the program. He indicated that it is his understanding that some teams turned in their registration fees very late and some never even turned in rosters. He stated he finds this unacceptable especially when we are talking about such a limited number of Edina residents who play bandy. Mr. Jenkins noted that he has no problem with bandy being gone, it's the surface that is being used there because it's a fabulous skating area. Mr. Herring indicated that he understands that. Mr. Fee pointed out that 70% of the sheet of ice is used for bandy utilization. Mr. Keprios asked if he reads the general consensus as approving that the U6 program play at Lewis Park next year if we do the best we can 7 IV. V. with the turf that we have. Mr. Jenkins noted he thinks so. Ms. Bennett asked if there has been any discussion on seeding the area or just leaving it for now. Mr. Keprios noted that he plans to consult with Mr. Cockriel to establish a turf maintenance plan for that field. However, we are definitely going to address a drainage issue and the Engineering Department has assured us that it can be corrected. Mr. Keprios indicated that he may ask the Soccer Association to help pay for it. Mr. Fee pointed out if that's what we are doing then we are facilitating them and they should share in part of the cost. Mr. Fee stated that it still seems like there could be something available through the schools and Mr. Keprios noted that it is an option. Mr. Jenkins asked Mr. Herring if he feels it would be better to get rid of the ice surface at Lewis Park. Mr. Herring noted that Centennial Lakes is a fabulous facility for general skating. Ms. Bennett replied that at Centennial Lakes you cannot bring a hockey stick or puck on the ice. Mr. Herring pointed out that he understands you cannot take a hockey stick or puck on the general skating rink at Lewis Park either. However, there would still be a general skating rink there. Mr. Herring explained that if you draw circles within a half mile there is ice almost everywhere except for places like Strachauer. EDINA SENIOR CENTER Mr. Keprios complimented Mr. Herring for getting the meeting together with Mr. Rosland and Mr. Johnson to extend the lease on the Senior Center to the year 2006. Mr. Keprios pointed out that results from the Senior Survey were very interesting. He indicated that of the 38% of seniors who returned the survey, 84% are satisfied with current location of the Senior Center. Mr. Fee asked if 38% is a low response and it was noted that it considered fairly high for a survey. PARK IMPROVEMENT PLAN Mr. Keprios asked the Park Board if they all received a copy of the first draft on the Park Improvement Plan that the staff presented to the City Council. He indicated that it will be on the City Council agenda set for Monday for discussion. Mr. Fee asked what is going to be done at the Aquatic Center for one million dollars. Mr. MacHolda explained that the main expense is the filtration system which will cost approximately $230,000 and should be fixed before we open next year. He also noted that the bathhouse will need to be upgraded. The bathhouse is approximately 38 years old and needs repairs and upgrades. In addition, if we abide by the state law regarding bather loads, we would be turning people away after 600 people have entered the pool. The bather load is based on the combination of water surface square footage and the number of available restrooms and showers. I Ms. Bennett asked who is the pool manager because she explained she was at the pool this past weekend and the girl did a really nice job in dealing with the people. Mr. MacHolda stated that her name is Laura Thorkelson. Mr. MacHolda pointed out that this past Thursday night KARE 11 news was at the pool and gave us some great publicity. People from all over the metro area wanted to take advantage of the facility that weekend and were unable to because of the annual Edina Aquatennial Swim Meet. He explained that some Edina residents have expressed their disappointment that the pool is closed to the public on that popular weekend. Mr. Keprios stated that Mr. MacHolda and his staff have done a great job managing the Edina Aquatic Center. VI. SUB -COMMITTEES Mr. Keprios indicated that he was instructed by Mr. Jenkins to cancel all of the sub -committee meetings with the exception of the by-laws meeting. Mr. Jenkins asked the Park Board if they want to keep the sub- committees and everyone indicated yes. Mr. Jenkins then suggested that the duties of the sub -committees and their purpose be fine tuned. Mr. Keprios indicated that he thinks the Facilities Maintenance Committee needs a mission statement. He noted that he understands the mission of the Park Improvement Committee. He also noted that the fees and charges is one that is going to be addressed, however, suggested that there may not be a need for a special fees and charges committee. Mr. Keprios explained that he would like to see the Park Improvement Committee have a couple of more members in case some people cannot attend a meeting there are others to fall back on. He indicated that the by-laws committee is basically a short-term committee that will probably serve more as a task force committee. Ms. Bennett asked Mr. Keprios what he sees the Park Improvement Sub - Committee doing beyond what has already been done. She indicated she feels they need some direction. Mr. Keprios explained that he would like for this sub -committee to discuss different ideas and review staff's recommendations before these visions are brought to the general public for feedback. VII. OTHER A. Turf Management Program - Mr. Jenkins asked how the turf is doing this year with the introduction of the Turf Management Program. Mr. Keprios indicated it is going very well. He stated that the turf consultant has said that he is really pleased with the maintenance that we are currently doing and feels we have a pretty good head start on a lot of areas. The turf consultant also pointed out that we have some serious problems with some of the athletic fields. He explained that it's not so much weed issues as it is unsafe turf conditions that need to be renovated. Mr. Keprios pointed out that he doesn't think we are going to see the results of the turf management experiment for a couple of years. He, noted that he is really pleased with the work and help that the turf Oj consultant has provided us. Mr. Keprios also indicated that the University of Minnesota has taken a tremendous interest in what we are doing and want to possibly offer us some grant money to do some public education. Mr. Crowther asked if there has been an increase in the level of complaints with the new turf management program. Mr. Keprios indicated that there were no more than normal, however, it's actually too early in the program to evaluate its success. B. GyRsy Moth Spraying - Mr. Crowther asked about the gypsy moth spraying. Mr. Keprios indicated there were two applications, one on May 23rd and one on May 30th. He noted that the Police Department, Fire Department and park staff were all involved in the process, which went very well. The Minnesota Department of Agriculture will not be able to determine the success of the program until the end of August or first part of September. C. Tennis Courts - Mr. Keprios indicated that three sets of tennis courts are being resurfaced. He noted that Mikkelson Construction has done a really good job with them. He stated that they are just finishing up Walnut Ridge Park and expects Highlands tennis courts to be a big challenge because of its poor condition. He explained that the next time Highlands tennis court needs resurfacing it will have to be torn out and rebuilt. However, at this point they are going to patch it the best they can so that it will make it at least two or three more years. He then noted that they will be starting on the Lewis Park tennis courts tomorrow. Mr. Keprios said that bids will be going out next week to rebuild the tennis courts at Utley Park, Pamela Park and Weber Park. He stated that if we receive reasonable bids, we would like to do all three. D. Council Meeting Minutes - Mr. Montgomery indicated that he liked receiving the City Council minutes in his packet. He noted that it gave him a better feel of what is going on and asked if the Park Board could keep receiving the City Council minutes. Mr. Keprios noted yes, staff will be sure to include copies of their minutes in the Park Board packet. E. Community Gardens - Ms. Hall asked if the neighbors have okayed the community gardens. Mr. Keprios indicated that letters to the neighborhood residents have not yet been sent. F. Garden Park Parking - Ms. Bennett asked if the lines could be remarked on the parking lot at Garden Park and possibly some other parks. Mr. Keprios indicated that it is on the Engineering Department's agenda of things to get done as soon as they can. VIII. ADJOURNMENT Dave Crowther MOVED TO ADJOURN THE MEETING AT 8:55 P.M. Jim Fee SECONDED THE MOTION. MEETING ADJOURNED 10