HomeMy WebLinkAbout1988-08-09 Park Board MinutesEDINA PARK BOARD
7:30 p.m.
August 9, 1988
Edina City Hall
MEMBERS PRESENT: Bob Christianson, Jim Fee, Mac Thayer, Itti Furlong, Jean Rydell
MEMBERS ABSENT: Andrew Montgomery, Bill Lord, Don Wineberg, Bill Jenkins
STAFF PRESENT: Bob Kojetin, John Keprios, John Valliere, Stacey Kness
OTHERS PRESENT: Mr. Tass von Schmidt -Pauli, Dr. John Hoyt
Mr. Christianson called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. Mr. Christianson welcomed Scott
Johnson as the School Board's representative to the Park Board.
I. APPROVAL OF JUNE 14, 1988, MINUTES
Mac Thayer MOVED TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE JUNE 14, 1988, MEETING. Jean Rydell
seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED.
II. APPROVAL OF JULY 28, 1988, MINUTES
Jim Fee MOVED TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE JULY 28, 1988, MEETING. Jean Rydell
seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED. A misspelled name was corrected.
III. BRAEMAR GOLF COURSE (BOARD)
Mr. Christianson gave Mr. Johnson some background information on the proposed golf
association from the June meeting.
Itti Furlong MOVED TO REMOVE THE GOLF ASSOCIATION ISSUE FROM THE TABLE. Mac Thayer
seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED.
Mr. Christianson reviewed the minutes of the June 14, 1988, meeting and opened the
floor for additional discussion to form a Braemar Golf Association with the bylaws as
proposed. Mr. Fee suggested Mr. Valliere restate his viewpoint.
Mr. Valliere said some of the history was that we had an ad hoc committee that helped
me when it was time to build the clubhouse, the maintenance building, the new
executive course. They helped me immensely in doing research searching what the
needs were in the building even to the point in helping make the presentation to the
Council in terms of how we were going to be able to pay for the indebtedness; it went
very well. They were able to reduce many, many staff hours collecting information
from all the people who utilize the facility --even going to businesses and to the
school system asking them if they would rent the facility if it were built. Both the
commercial business and school system are utilizing the facility. One of the points
that is in contention was the permanency of the board. My points are that I think
that I would like to see the board become a part of the scene in Edina because I feel
it is good citizen input. They do not want to be in a dictatorial situation. I feel
that they would be an asset to me, and I feel if I got out of line they would be a
vehicle for the citizens to come to them. Mr. Wineberg has been a good sounding
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board as a member of the ad hoc committee from that aspect, but he is frequently out
of town on business and was unable to attend some meetings during a temporary board.
I am in favor of the board. I feel there are many things they can help me do as a
manager in terms of gathering information and presenting the citizens' points of
view.
Mr. Kojetin said the Park Board always had a Board representative appointed for each
facility through the years. There are Board representatives for the swimming pool,
golf course, arena, etc. At times when the Park Board needed more information, they
would activate the assigned Board member to form an ad hoc committee to study that
particular facility, and come back to the Park Board and make recommendations. The
Park Board then would make a recommendation to the Council. It has really been quite
successful through the years since an ad hoc committee is good at gathering
information. When we had the study for the arena, an ad hoc committee was put
together with a Park Board representative and met once a week for almost two years
gathering information. My feeling is we already have an advisory board (Park Board)
to represent all the citizens for the facility whatever it might be. In the early
years of the golf course, we had an ad hoc committee that met at 7:00 p.m. before
every single meeting of the Park Board. I think that worked very successfully and it
cleared a lot of air at the golf course where we had some serious problems in the
early years. Over time as the problems were solved, the committee dissolved, but the
Park Board appointed representative was still on the Park Board to answer questions
and start a committee if necessary. I don't really see a total value of trying to
establish some kind of permanent committee at this time.
Mrs. Furlong asked someone to describe who the proposed Braemar Golf Association
would consist of. Mr. Kojetin indicated the list of people proposed to make up the
board was in the information that was given out at the previous Park Board meeting
and also the information that is before you now. There was some concern that
everyone had not received the information at the previous meeting. They have their
own board of directors just like an athletic association. Their main objective is to
play golf on a set night. Mrs. Furlong asked if this is more a social group than
anything else. Mr. Kojetin said it is more than that. Braemar provides a facility
for their sport. That is how we look at each facility --it is a facility for the
sport association to use.
Mrs. Furlong asked about the advisory power of the leagues. Mr. Fee said the leagues
are not in an advisory capacity. Mr. Christianson said their primary purpose is to
run their events, but when something arises, they come here to the Park Board.
Dr. Hoyt said his perception of the proposal is not approval of this board. My
perception is we are looking for your endorsement of the formation of an association
or board which would serve in an advisory capacity of this board. The board has
suggested membership of league members and non league members. All of the league
members also play open golf. There is a board representative of open golfers. It
seems to me that it could form itself. What we had hoped for is an endorsement of
the formation of an association which would then, on its own initiative, provide its
own council and if asked by this board could serve in the same capacity as the ad hoc
committees as a research group.
Mrs. Furlong asked do you think it is possible for a board to exist and not become
more than just a helping hand? When Mr. Fee stated in the June meeting that "there
is not a country club in Edina that does not have a board of directors", it doesn't
make sense because Braemar is not a country club, but it is large enough to be
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considered for a board. Dr. Hoyt said I don't believe there is a risk of the
association becoming more than a helping hand. I would like to see the board be on a
staggered term and endorsed not approved by this board which would help it not to
become entrenched. We have a host of vested interests. That is what the democratic
process is all about.
Mr. Fee said I don't look at it as being any different than the other athletic
associations that we get minutes of their meetings or anything else. Is it
different? Mr. Christianson said I think it is different. Mr. Fee said I would have
some of the same concerns about them getting too much power. I look at it as being
like another association. Mr. Keprios said it is different in a sense. The Edina
Soccer Association exists to provide the sport of soccer. The Edina Hockey
Association plays its games in the arena but the arena is also used by other
activities such as figure skating. If the arena had an association, they would have
to have a representative from each type of group that uses the facility.
Mr. Fee said it looks like they are trying to get representation from each group.
Mr. Kojetin said each athletic board is separate. The Braemar Golf Association would
be looking over the facility not just providing an opportunity for the sport. That
is really what the Park Board is for --looking over the facility.
Mr. Christianson said I think if you look at this a little more closely it is an
infringement of the Park Board and City Council. It appears to me it is to report to
the City Council and in my view I think that is taking away the Park Board's
responsibilities. The Park Board is entrusted and has been appointed by the City
Council as a custodian in the city of Edina and is the Council's representative in
making sure that these revenue facilities are operated in a manner conducive with the
welfare of the general public. I perceive that as cutting away some of the Park
Board's responsibilities; I feel as a member of the Park Board at times it would be
very nice to delegate some of our responsibilities, but I don't think we should be
concerned with the amount of time we could save. I don't perceive that this is
necessary. I dare say that nothing detrimental has been done to the golf course.
Many times their input has come to the Park Board. Sometimes it is accepted and
sometimes it is not. My feeling is until somebody can show me the system we
presently have is not functioning properly, I am not in favor of changing.
Mr. Tass von Schmidt -Pauli said there is a misunderstanding. We are not here to
usurp the powers of the Park Board or to take on any Park Board functions. I sense a
fear that we are here to go to the City Council and take over your responsibilities.
Please open up a little bit in your thinking and recognize that we would be a
supportive group that will report to the Park Board. We are not here to take over,
but we feel that we have an opportunity to present the voices of golfers that affect
their play.
Mrs. Furlong said you don't think you have a vehicle now? Mr. von Schmidt -Pauli said
no.
Mr. Christianson said you don't feel you have had an opportunity to come td this
board? Mr. von Schmidt -Pauli said we have come to this board under pressure. The ad
hoc committee was formed as a last effort to get a board issue two years ahead of
time. We took up the cause because we had an interest. We heard that the ad hoc
committee no longer was necessary. How would you feel if you spent six to seven
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months getting approval of the issue and hear your committee is no longer needed. We
are looking to have revolving membership and have a Park Board member to help us out
and if we are not, we will take other steps. We need a vehicle.
Dr. Hoyt said I think there is another misunderstanding. IF this association is
formed and is endorsed by this board, if it ever goes to the City Council without
having come to this board, I will not only resign but urge the board to dissolve. We
are talking about an advisory group to give input to the Park Board. The group has
no power as it is proposed and would have no power unless you delegate power to it.
Mr. Christianson said in looking at the proposed membership of the association it is
to consist of ten members. Two from the Park Board, two from at large, and the
remaining six are to be representatives of the citizens group who use the Braemar
facility. Three of whom belong to the Braemar Men's Club and one each from three
women's leagues. Number one, where is the guy who goes out and tees it up at the odd
hour represented? Number two, where is the citizen of Edina represented who does not
play golf but is a taxpayer and responsible for the maintenance and upkeep? I don't
see those people here and, frankly, this appears to be a stacked deck.
Dr. Hoyt said the patron who goes out at odd hours is represented by the league
members because the league members are open play golfers also. The "at large" people
are golfers who will participate but are not members of leagues. The Braemar Men's
Club has some 275 active members. The Golden Agers has 120. There are 395 male
league members. If you add all the women's leagues together you get 1200.
Mr. Johnson asked are all members of Braemar Men's Club members of a league? Is
there another section of people that pay fees as patrons but are not members of
leagues?
Dr. Hoyt said yes, and there are golfers at large who are not patrons who go out and
take their chances. All of the Men's Club league members must be patrons. Mr.
Valliere said in 1990 all league members must live in Edina.
Mr. Christianson said Braemar Men's Club has a limited number of spaces available for
a person that is a resident to become a member of the Braemar Men's Club. Dr. Hoyt
said there are 162 names on the waiting list. We have a membership cap of 275. It
is also a fact that if the club were made unlimited, when the Braemar Men's Club had
a tournament you could not get all the members into the tournament.
Mr. Christianson said how do you justify that with use of a public facility? You are
using a public facility for a private organization and turning away people who want
to join it.
Mr. Valliere said if the golf course were strictly open play, we would be leaving out
an important ingredient in golf --competition. The fact that we have leagues at the
golf course gives us an opportunity to provide competition and a social aspect. What
is an effective cap size to our Men's Club. If you do not manage it at all, it would
take over open play. If I had to manage a Men's Club over 1000 members, I could not
give them the time they require, and they would be more demanding than the normal
patron card holders. It is good that they run their own affairs.
Mr. Johnson asked how many new people became members of Braemar Men's Club this
year. Dr. Hoyt said 19 January 1, 1988, and seven since then. There is about a
three year wait. Mr. Johnson said running a public facility doesn't seem to meet the
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needs of the community. Mr. Valliere said we have about 12 ladies leagues. Mr.
Johnson said I am in favor of the advisory board, but I am concerned that this has a
self-serving interest.
Dr. Hoyt said we will open membership in the association to any citizen in Edina that
wants to become a member. Given a year or two of establishment, in the second or
third year we would like to see the board of the association elected by the
association.
Mrs. Furlong said why don't you want to have a general Rolf association as opposed to
hooking with the facility?
Dr. Hoyt said I can't afford a private club. The Centennial Golf Tournament was a
successful event. I have also heard that a large share of the golfers were golfers
from Braemar who wanted to play at the private clubs. An Edina Golf Association is a
great idea. Dr. Hoyt said we are asking for your endorsement. If it became a vested
interest group, you can say you do not want to hear from us again.
Mr. Christianson said it sounds good, but once you form a group and start running, no
matter what happens we probably would not be able to say you no longer exist. I like
your original idea to form whatever association you want.
Dr. Hoyt said I tried to make a distinction of your endorsement and your approval of
a committee of this board. I am asking for the Park Board's endorsement for the
formation of the Braemar Golf Association. Mr. Christianson said in looking at Mr.
von Schmidt-Pauli's original information, I see "request approval", not endorsement.
Dr. Hoyt said change the words if Mr. von Schmidt -Pauli can to "endorse". We would
like it to be cooperative.
Mr. Johnson asked if the Park Board was approached in forming the other
associations. Mr. Kojetin said no. They were formed during the mid 50s and 60s.
The Park Board recognized all the associations if they established bylaws including
fair play, equal opportunity for all participants, have fun, build good
sportsmanship, etc. This body would then recognize them as the governing body of
that particular sport and a staff member would sit on that board, not as a voting
member, but as an advisor to give professional input to that particular board.
Mr. Fee said this is obviously a hot issue and I can see both sides. We are missing
four people that could have valuable input on this subject. I would not be in favor
of voting on this issue without having their input. I can see your points; I think
there is some misunderstanding and I don't think we should make a fast decision.
Maybe there is some way of getting us some more information on what your
responsibilities are when we have a full membership to address this at a following
meeting. I don't want to make the wrong decision.
Mr. Christianson said I have spoken to one council member who is opposed to this. I
think it is an important issue, and I concur with the suggestion to wait on the
vote.
Mr. Fee MOVED TO TABLE THE BRAEMAR GOLF ASSOCIATION ISSUE. Scott Johnson seconded
the motion. Mrs. Furlong said if we are postponing this because a lot of members are
not here, I am wondering if there aren't some adjustments that can be made in light
of what we have said tonight. Mr. Fee said maybe there is something more definitive
we can get.
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Mr. von Schmidt -Pauli said my letter was a straw horse saying we would like to be an
association working with the Park Board. Everything was draft ideas.
Mrs. Furlong said I have been in plenty of tennis associations and I have seen plenty
of intentions go awry. If John Valliere needs help with the golf course and you want
to form an association, you have a right to do that. I think what I am hearing is
that you are not straying far from the draft ideas.
Dr. Hoyt said if the club were formed as an association, these people could not
afford to not represent the golfing public. We have one of the finest public golfing
facilities in the country, and our intent is to represent golfers at large and the
community. Would you endorse the concept?
Mrs. Furlong said all I am suggesting is you come back to the full group and show the
proposal.
Dr. Hoyt said my personal feeling would be to come back as an association and invite
you to appoint a member.
Mr. Christianson said you can certainly do that. It will be on the next agenda. A
decision will be made at the next meeting whether there is a full group or not.
Mr. Fee asked if it is appropriate to'get comments from any member that will not be
able to attend the meeting next month. I want to know what everyone else thinks.
Mr. Keprios said my feelings have changed somewhat. I think it is wonderful when
people want to donate their time to give input to help us be more productive. I am
all for it, but I can't see what the purpose would be except for self-serving. The
only question is in my mind, "if it is not broken, don't fix it." What is wrong out
there? Otherwise I think it is great that people want to dedicate their time to
something positive like that.
MOTION TO TABLE THE ISSUE CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Mr. Christianson asked Miss Kness to ask each member if they are not going to be
present that they make known to Bob Kojetin their feelings on the motion that has
been made. We cannot take a proxy but at least we will have their comments. He
stated to the audience I am sorry we did not come to grip with this topic, but I
think you will agree that it is important that everyone on the board have their
input.
IV. BUDGET
Mr. Kojetin indicated in preliminary budget meetings that he has requested a patrol
officer in the parks and also to hire a full time maintenance person who would
perform janitorial services on a daily basis. This individual would be on a
permanent basis to clean buildings and do odd maintenance jobs and also be shared
with the Art Center janitorial and maintenance. Mr. Kojetin asked the Park Board if
they have any suggestions or input on what they would like in the budget. It would
be nice to hear between now and our next meeting.
Mr. Christianson said in the survey there seemed to be a lot of parks where the
drinking fountains were not working.
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Mr. Kojetin said they weren't turned on yet at the time the survey was conducted.
Mr. Keprios indicated that the drinking fountains and buildings were always heavily
vandalized as fast as we fixed them. Mr. Kojetin said we are installing a drinking
fountain at Wooddale Park which is a donation in memory of a small child.
Mrs. Rydell asked if a patrol would really help? Mr. Kojetin said yes, if you have a
patrol that is covering the parks. Mr. Kojetin said covering the interior of the
parks on a regular basis and used by the Park Director at his discretion where some
of the heaviest vandalism is going on. When vandalism occurs at certain parks, it is
best to try to have somebody immediately get to the park to try to curb the problem
and not wait for the normal police patrol of the area.
Mrs. Furlong asked where the depreciation money goes. Mr. Kojetin said it is an
accounting procedure. Mrs. Furlong said so it is a non-cash item. Mr. Christianson
said there is no cash put aside from that. Mr. Keprios said no money changes hands.
Mr. Thayer said there have been no cash sinking funds to replace the depreciation.
Mr. Christianson said Mr. Rosland indicated that the proposal for a cash depreciation
fund would be against the philosophy of the City Council.
Mrs. Furlong said so all those dollars go to the Council to use,at their discretion?
Mr. Kojetin said generally what happens is those monies are in separate budgeted
accounts. Mrs. Furlong asked if it would be good to propose the sinking fund idea?
Mr. Christianson said I guess we could propose it, but it would not be our function
to establish it. Mrs. Rydell said it could go in our minutes but it could go no
further than that? Mr. Christianson said we could make a recommendation that a
sinking fund be made.
Mrs. Furlong said it seems that the bigger the facilities get the more you should be
planning ahead. I believe in the "one pot philosophy", but why can't some be
allocated even if it is a smaller percentage. Mr. Kojetin said the Council believes
let the people of the future pay for it and not pay for it now. Mr. Christianson
said we are giving them a message that the subject could be revisited.
Mrs. Furlong suggested making the depreciation figure more real and making a
depreciation fund. I only believe in real budgeting before the bottom line.
Mr. Kojetin said there will be a time set aside in September when the Council talks
about the park budget at a special budget meeting. I recommend that the Board
attend to provide input in those meetings.
V. OTHER
Mr. Kojetin mentioned the letter he wrote to Mr. McEnary about ponds in Lewis Park.
Mr. Kojetin received two thank you letters from recipients of the scholarship
monies.
The Edina Gymnastics Association wrote a letter regarding the fact that they still
want to be considered in the Braemar Arena Complex, but at this time they do not want
to participate in it. A copy of the letter will be mailed to board members.
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The University of Minnesota collected 233 Canadian geese from Edina. A total of 2578
geese were collected from the entire metropolitan area. We have 15,000 geese now.
If this program were not implemented, by 1995 the experts think 50,000 geese could be
here.
Mr. Kojetin indicated the Braemar Arena Renovation proposal was approved at the
August 1, 1988, Council meeting.
Regarding the Senior Center Research Committee, Mrs. Rydell said it looks like the
Community Center will not work out. There is too much money involved to renovate it
to meet the needs of the senior center. Mr. Kojetin indicated that the School had
looked at the possibility of installing an elevator in the door entrance area of the
northwest corner of the Community Center. Money from the handicap funds of the City
would be permissible under the county to be used for this allocation. Mrs. Rydell
said we have been looking at Vernon Terrace which has 33 units out of 200 rented. We
think if we were there it could bring more people into the building. Mrs. Furlong
asked if Vernon Terrace wants the senior center in their building. Mr. Kojetin said
we have to look to the future. The present building manager likes the idea, but we
still have to meet with the owner of the property. This has some real good
possibilities but still would only be considered as a temporary location for the
senior facility.
VI. ADJOURNMENT
Jim Fee MOVED TO ADJOURN AT 9:15 P.M. Mac Thayer seconded the motion. MOTION
CARRIED.
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