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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1988-09-13 Park Board MinutesEDINA PARK BOARD 7:30 p.m. September 13, 1988 Edina City Hall MEMBERS PRESENT: Bob Christianson, Jim Fee, Mac Thayer, Itti Furlong, Jean Rydell Andrew Montgomery, Bill Lord, Don Wineberg, Bill Jenkins, Scott Johnson STAFF PRESENT: Bob Kojetin, John Keprios, John Valliere, Stacey Kness OTHERS PRESENT: Dr. John Hoyt, Mr. Roger Harrold Mr. Christianson called the meeting to order at 8:00 p.m. I. APPROVAL OF AUGUST 9, 1988, MINUTES Jean Rydell MOVED TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE AUGUST 9, 1988, MEETING. Scott Johnson seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED. 'Mr. Montgomery questioned an item in the minutes. Mr. Kojetin stated the majority of athletic associations were formed in the 50s and 60s. The Soccer Association and Wrestling Association were formed in the 70s and 80s. Minutes stand corrected. II. BRAEMAR GOLF COURSE (BOARD) Mr. Christianson said the Braemar Golf Association has been formed, has appointed members, and has requested that the Edina Park Board appoint a representative; apparently as part of that request, they wish that the Edina Park Board give "official" standing by participating in the Association's activities and accept what they have done. From a procedural standpoint the issue is on the table, and it seems that the matter has changed to a degree because as it was previously presented there was not an association and now there is. The discussion is open on what we want to do, if anything, with the proposal that we give official sanction to the Braemar Golf Association, to what extent we should become involved, and if we should appoint a representative to the Association. Dr. Hoyt stated the Association has been formed. The prior motion and discussion dealt with the Park Board approving the development or formation of a board. We have done that. What we are asking of you is simply an indication on your willingness to work with us by initiating the invitation to appoint a member of the Park Board. If you wish to take any other form of action, that is up to you. We will be meeting 6 p.m. this Thursday at Braemar. Mr. Christianson said he thinks as far as the membership of John Valliere and Joe Greuppner, he does not see that it is a Park Board decision. Mr. Kojetin said he usually appoints the person to the board. Generally he assigns one of the staff people from his office to sit on the boards. Dr. Hoyt said their two additional ex officio members at large have not been appointed, and they would solicit Mr. Kojetin's advice on that. - 1 - Mr. Christianson said that summarizes the status of the Association; he opened the floor for discussion or motions. Andy Montgomery MOVED TO ACCEPT THE BRAEMAR GOLF ASSOCIATION. Don Wineberg seconded the motion. Mrs. Rydell asked why would a Park Board member have to be appointed when there are two city employees on the Board; there is not a Park Board member on any other association board. Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg to express his view. Mr. Wineberg thinks if this is the will of the people at large at Braemar, he has no objections to it. Mr. Fee asked if he sees it as conflicting with the Park Board. Mr. Wineberg answered no; if something came up that required Park Board approval, he is sure they would do that. Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg if he thinks these people would be taking advantage of a power situation at Braemar in any way. Mr. Wineberg said not to his knowledge. When we had the meeting a year ago and a number of league members were present, he had strong feelings about non-residents in leagues. That is his only concern. Mr. Johnson asked if a resident has a problem regarding the management of the golf course, i.e, excessive time is devoted to leagues, procedurally would that be handled by the Golf Association and then the Park Board. Mr. Christianson said as he perceives the operation of the golf course, John Valliere is the manager who is taxed with the day to day operation. The general policies relating to the golf course are established by the Park Board subject to approval or disapproval by the City Council. To the extent that a problem is not taken care of to the satisfaction of the person, it would first go to Mr. Kojetin. If it related to a policy and not and administrative matter, it would come to the Park Board. Mr. Montgomery stated the swimming pool has a board, the Historical Society has an association, and the baseball complex has an association that uses it. He looks at the golf course as one huge chunk of the City's investment that does not have an association that gives feedback relating to that facility. He does not understand why there is resistance to this Association. Mrs. Furlong said she has come full circle on a lot of things. It is real important for her to read carefully everything that has come to her. What you Mr. Montgomery just said would have been her first inclination three meetings ago and is now at a totally different point --not for the fact that you people want to help the golf course because you know what is going on; she sees that as nothing but a healthy and good intent. On the other hand, she thinks that it has implications structurally that we are not even thinking about right now because we do not know what is down the road. If the Association had not been made, she would have pleaded the case of an Edina Golf Association rather than a Braemar Golf Association. The golfers do not own the golf course. The golfers should not be in control of that facility. - 2 - Whenever you have an association is formed with a special interest in mind, it does carry more weight. When you have a special interest group in place, something will happen and policies directly or indirectly will be made. She would rather see a golf association that promotes golf than a Braemar golf club that looks at the interest of the Braemar golfers. She was disappointed when she read the letter that said the association was formed. The process that is working right now is working well. She hopes that their intent plays itself out. She does not suggest that Park Board appoint a board member to the Golf Association. Just by appointing someone does not mean we are willing to work with your board. She is in opposition to the motion. Mr. Montgomery asked if the baseball association (for example) is self centered. Mrs. Furlong said a golf association would have one thing in mind, but it wouldn't be tied to a facility. Mr. Fee asked for Mr. Lord's and Mr. Jenkins' opinions. Mr. Lord said these people have already formed their association and we have to realize it and keep the doors open to these people. He does not think a'Park Board member should be a member of their board because there are no precedents from other boards. Mr. Jenkins has a reservation on appointing a Park Board member. Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg if he thinks this has any more power than the Hockey Association, for example. Mr. Wineberg answered he does not think they have more power. Mr. Kojetin referred to the information from the November 1977 Park Board Meeting, "Athletic Associations Relationship with the Park Board and the Park and Recreation Staff". He said there have been other times when people have become upset with a particular board and have made their own board. Because the Park Board has recognized the eleven associations as the governing body for their sport, it has stopped the splintering of other groups. He believes we endorse one group to prevent the splintering. Mr. Kojetin mentioned that he had not been approached by the proposed golf association before they were formed. He has spoken with Mr. Valliere but never any of the board people. Mr. Christianson said he thinks that is regrettable. He said to give this association our blessing at this time is not wise; it may well create problems down the line that will be more trouble than they are worth. He stated he believes the system is working now. He said we have one of the finest public facilities in the country; it is extremely well run. Mrs. Furlong said if all a group who wanted Park Board's approval had to do was to go ahead and do it, it would not be a good precedent. Dr. Hoyt said the name "Braemar" Golf Association was picked because Braemar is the only public course in the city. He has no problem with changing the name if it would make a difference. He agrees with the concept of the Park Board not appointing a member to the Golf Board. Dr. Hoyt suggests when the golf board meets on Thursday - 3 - taken from September 13, 1988, Park Board minutes that Mr. Kojetin be asked to serve as an ex officio board member or be invited to any meeting. It was Dr. Hoyt's understanding that Mr. Kojetin had been contacted by several people in the board. Dr. Hoyt apologized for not contacting Mr. Kojetin prior to the formation of the Association. Mr. Christianson asked for any additional discussion. He asked for a vote. MOTION CARRIED. Itti Furlong, Jean Rydell, Bill Jenkins, Bob Christianson opposed the motion. III. DEKHOCKEY PROPOSAL FOR LEWIS PARK Mr. Kojetin introduced Mr. John Griffith of Breakaway Dekhockey, Inc. Mr. Griffith's company would like to rent Lewis Park for a commercial venture. They intend to make money on it, and they intend to run a good, successful, recreational/leisure program. Mr. Kojetin said this is important as a policy because we are getting into different things that are coming up of starting to rent to different types of people. Mr. Griffith said dekhockey is very big in the northeast part of the country. The game is run similar to ice hockey except it is on a deck. It is played on top of a special plastic surface. The equipment includes a stick with a wooden shaft and plastic blade, shin guards, helmet, and a 2" diameter hollow ball. The ball is a little bigger than a bandy ball but much lighter. There is no checking in the game. Mrs. Furlong asked if this is a family sport or if it is very competitive. Mr. Griffith said the leagues are divided into the following age divisions: 4-6 years, 7-9 years, 10-12 years, 13-15 years, 16-19 years, and over 17. For the youth leagues there would be 12 games per season with three seasons during the year. The participants sign up individually. Volunteer coaches help form the teams and work with them through the season. Mr. Jenkins asked what the relationship between Breakaway Dekhockey and the Recreation Department would be. Mr. Kojetin said they would run their own program; we would just rent the facility to them. Mr. Montgomery asked what dekhockey will do to the roller blade concept. Mr. Kojetin said we have not been able to get the roller blade program started. We would like to have a one year lease to try it out with a second year option. Mr. Johnson asked what the registration fee is. Mr. Griffith said in Pittsburgh they charge $30 per player for 12 games with 10 to 12 minute periods. The shin guards are about $10 per pair; the stick is $7-$8,and the ball is $1. Any other protective pads or guards can also be used. Every player must wear a helmet with full face cage or shield. Mr. Johnson asked how many people participate in dekhockey in Pittsburgh. Mr. Griffith said they have 110 teams per season with 10-12 players per team. - 4 - Mr. Fee said there are a lot of people who would play hockey but do not skate that this sport would be good for. Mr. Keprios asked if the fee covers the leagues and jerseys. Mr. Griffith said they would get sponsors to supply jerseys and usually fathers of participants volunteer to coach. Mr. Keprios asked about practice schedules. Mr. Griffith said when teams practice against each other, the practices are free. For individual team practice for players over 17 years old there would be a fee. In Pittsburgh they pay $35/hour to practice. Mr. Keprios said the concept is exciting. He said it looks great for kids who are skaters and for kids who are not skaters. He was sold on the idea of dekhockey because the asphalted rink at Lewis Park will have a purpose. Mr. Jenkins asked if the rink is used for anything else at that time. Mr. Keprios said no other activities are planned on the rink during those months. Mr. Fee asked what the cost was to asphalt the Lewis Park rink. Mr. Kojetin said it cost around $5,000. It was asphalted for a possible roller blade program, and in principle it enables an ice rink to be made within a week and not the traditional three to four weeks on regular ground. Mr. Fee asked if this would be marketed through the Park Department. Mr. Keprios said it would be listed in the calendar, but it would give a few details and the name of a contact person. He mentioned the proposal to some Edina Hockey Association board members and they thought it was a great idea. Mr. Montgomery asked what the staff sees as the impact on spring sports. Mr. Keprios said since there will be more than just a spring season, he doesn't see it as diminishing any other programs. Mrs. Furlong asked who covers liability when a private group rents a facility. Mr. Griffith said their insurance would cover all the spectators and anyone getting injured during the game. Mr. Keprios said he is in support of the proposal but the only thing he questions is having a schedule recreation activity at Lewis Park which has been a passive park in the summer time. If we get negative feedback from the neighbors, we do have an out at the end of the year. He thinks it is worth a try. Mr. Johnson asked if the rental would include the rink and the warming house. Mr. Keprios said it would include the warming house. They are in charge of all clean up and facilities. - 5 - Mr. Lord asked if it would impact the new Arena East and West. Mr. Keprios said it would not impact it, but we could ask Larry Thayer. Mr. Johnson asked if the Recreation Department will attempt to limit times to limit impact. Mr. Keprios said part of the agreement would be it would be March through November. Mrs. Rydell said the spring league would start and finish before the other sports are beginning. Mr. Christianson said it is our responsibility to provide as many choices as possible to people in the city. Mr. Keprios said they many find that it is in their best interest to schedule around our activities. Mr. Johnson asked if there are any other youth opportunities run by a for-profit operation. Mr. Keprios said there seems to be a trend that the public sector is starting to get into the private sector to get some monies to offset some of our deficits. Mr. Wineberg asked if the $500 rental per month plus expenses is cut and dry. Mr. Keprios said yes, that is the agreement. Mrs. Furlong asked Mr. Montgomery to explain his comment on conflict with other activities. Mr. Montgomery said the kids can play both soccer and baseball without conflict until the upper grades, and now this sport could provide a conflict. Mrs. Furlong asked if it is the Park Board's responsibility to decide when certain athletics can be played, or is it up to each association. Mr. Kojetin said it is generally a staff decision. Mr. Keprios said scheduling conflicts occur because in baseball, ability levels are split at the same leagues. There is no way around that between soccer and baseball. Jim Fee MOVED THAT THE PARK BOARD ENDORSE AND ACCEPT THE PROPOSAL AS PRESENTED BY BREAKAWAY DEKHOCKEY, INC. AND ALSO ENCOURAGE THEM TO WORK WITH PARK DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL IN SETTING UP AND ESTABLISHING PROGRAMMING AT LEWIS PARK FOR ONE YEAR AT $500/MONTH WITH AN OPTION ON A SECOND YEAR. Jean Rydell seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. Mr. Montgomery asked if this means we are giving up the facility. Mr. Keprios said all we are doing is leasing the facility and giving up the rights to use it. - 6 - Mr. Kojetin said whenever that building is open, other people in the park can use the restrooms. IV. EVERGREEN BIBLE CHURCH PROPOSAL TO RENT ARNESON ACRES Mr. Kojetin indicated the Evergreen Bible Church approached him requesting to rent the Grange Hall on Sundays and Wednesdays. Mr. Kojetin denied this request. The Church came back and asked about Arneson Acres Park. We really have not rented the building on a year-round basis. We have never rented as a City to a church group. They have approximately 30 people in the congregation with a possibility of 60 people attending including family members. The capacity of the Terrace Room is 70 - 80 people. The Church proposed to pay the utilities. In 1987 the heat expense was $547; electric $659; telephone $658. The electric bill was averaged because there was not a meter at the building for about three months. Mr. Fee asked if the Garden Council and the Historical Society generated any revenue to cover expenses. Mr. Kojetin said yes, they have committed that they would pay the utilities. We could charge the Church $50 per day rental instead of having them pay utilities. Mr. Lord asked why we would consider diverting from this schedule of rental fees. Mr. Christianson asked if the Garden Council and the Historical Society have reviewed this proposal. Mr. Kojetin indicated he had discussed it with the Garden Council Monday, September 12 They did not seem against it. Mrs. Rydell asked about separation of church and state. Mr. Wineberg said this group is a new church. He asked if they have purchased ground to build a church to grow into. Mr. Kojetin said they have not purchased any land. Mr. Wineberg said we should learn more about this group. Mr. Lord asked why we would divert from the scheduled of rental fees. Mr. Christianson said they either pay what we charge or they look somewhere else. Mr. Montgomery said there should be some kind of discount when people want to use it for 52 weeks a year. Mr. Christianson said the Historical Society and the Garden Council are already committed to covering the operating expenses, so this will not deter from that. Mr. Kojetin said what we have to do is rent it to help support the building other than the utilities for things such as general upkeep, painting, and so on. Mr. Montgomery said you cannot charge a one -time -only rate for a year-long use. - 7 - Mr. Christianson asked what the Community Center would charge for a comparable rental on a year basis. He said the Community Center has established different rates for different tenants. On a smaller basis a tenant would pay more than on a large basis. Mr. Fee asked if we want the money. Mrs. Furlong said we should watch out on who they are. Mr. Wineberg said this is how a new church gets established; it rents a building and starts up. Mr. Johnson suggested that the staff get more information from the church group. Mr. Christianson said it seems we have crossed the threshold of renting to private enterprises. We should find out what the Community Center does charge on a comparable basis. V. 1989 FEES AND CHARGES Mr. Kojetin indicated the Council asked the staff to increase their fees and charges four to seven percent. The Council makes the final decision, but they like to have the Park Board look at the fees and charges before they do. Scott Johnson MOVED TO ADOPT THE 1989 FEES AND CHARGES AS PRESENTED. Jim Fee seconded the motion. Mr. Montgomery stated his disagreement with the proposed arena season ticket increase. He said with an economy that is not great, these are not reasonable increases. He said how much more can you get from the taxpayer of Edina. Mr. Jenkins asked if these arena prices are comparable to other areas. Mr. Kojetin said Mr. Valliere, Mr. Thayer, and Mr. MacHolda have checked with other facilities to compare the golf course, arena, and swimming pool prices. We try to stay in the upper half of fees and charges. Some areas we are higher, but we are pretty close. Mr. Lord said he understands the comments, but each individual manager has okayed these numbers. We have to believe and trust their judgement. Mr. Johnson asked if the staff and other board members feel there is a wide enough difference between resident and non-resident fees. Mr. Christianson asked Mr. Valliere what Edinburg Golf Course charges non -patrons for 18 rounds. Mr. Valliere stated Edinburg had proposed to charge $20 but dropped to $17. They have a different structure that allows a non-resident to buy a patron card at a different price. Mrs. Furlong asked Mr. Valliere why there isn't a non-resident fee separate and higher than the resident fee at Braemar. - 8 - Mr. Valliere said it is a policing nightmare, and 79 percent of our traffic is patron. The numbers of non-residents is not that great. Mr. Christianson asked why the golf course raised its prices such a small amount. Mr. Valliere said his increases are four percent or even a little less. He said he is coming off a year of tremendous revenue. The golf course is experiencing a very profitable year, and he did not want to charge the golfer. Mrs. Furlong said it makes sense but the arena's and the pool's increases are out of line. Mr. Montgomery said traffic at the pool has slowed so much that this increase will surely slow it even more. Mr. Wineberg said keeping the pool at the 1988 rate will not bring more traffic. Mrs. Furlong said if the Council asked for a four to seven percent increase, why does it jump so high now. Mr. Christianson said the arena has not been raised for three years. Maybe it should have been raised a little bit each year. Mr. Montgomery said he does not want to be a part of a recommendation with some of these increases. Mr. Lord said how can we sit here and make these kind of decisions. We have to put some faith in the managers' judgement. Mr. Kojetin said each manager really looks at the market in the metropolitan area. The thing that you can be flexible on is when you charge non-residents. Mrs. Furlong said she still disagrees with three resident rates. When she had studied with the Task Force on comparing other cities' fees and charges, she found they were all over the place on participation fees. She doesn't think there is a basis for comparison. Mr. Lord said he would suggest having Mr. Thayer come in to make a presentation before making a recommendation. Mr. Christianson asked Mr. Kojetin the amount of time before Council required the 1989 fees and charges. Mr. Kojetin said the Council would probably like to see the fees and charges Monday, September 19. Mr. Montgomery said there should not be an increase of more than 10 percent. Mr. Johnson asked Mr. Kojetin if the overall impact would be seriously affected if the resident rates were lowered at the arena and the pool. Mr. Kojetin said the overall impact would not be affected. - 9 - Andy Montgomery MOVED TO AMEND THE MOTION ON THE FLOOR BY LOWERING THE RESIDENT FAMILY SEASON TICKET AT THE ARENA TO $55 AND THE RESIDENT INDIVIDUAL SEASON TICKET TO $35 AND BY LOWERING THE RESIDENT FAMILY SEASON PASS AT THE POOL TO $46 AND THE RESIDENT INDIVIDUAL SEASON PASS TO $30. Jim Fee seconded the amendment. AMENDMENT PASSED UNANIMOUSLY. AMENDED MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY. VI. OTHER Mr. Kojetin indicated the Council received the appraisal of the golf dome, and the Council discussion was tabled until Monday, September 19. Mr. Lord said Mr. Richards suggested Park Board discuss this tonight. Mr. Kojetin answered questions put to the Council by Mr. McFadden (see attachment). 1. Does the city now own any part of the dome? If so, what value? What is the value of the remainder? Who owns the fence? The City owns the building used as a picnic shelter valued at about $100,000. It is rented to Golf Dome Associates for $6000 per year. The appraisers' value is $620,000 excluding the building which includes electrical system, artificial turf, concrete around the perimeter, heaters. Golf Dome Associates own the fence. 2. Do we have any appraisal of the life expectancy of the dome? Life expectancy is 12 to 14 years. 3. What is the status of the auxiliary heating unit that is necessary for operation in cold weather? Golf Dome Associates rents a portable heating system. 4. Is there an operating projection to include original cost, plus interest, plus replacement cost, and does that projection show a profit or loss? How much rent have we collected in five years. We have collected at least $27,000 in three years. See attachment for projections. 5. What is the cost of insurance coverage for fire and liability? Golf Dome Associates pays $14,000 6. Are any repairs currently needed to operate the dome effectively? No repairs are needed to operate the dome. There are some things that need upgrading such as the revolving door. - 10 - 7. What would a brand new dome from scratch cost and how much more efficient would it be? The appraisers have two quotes of what a new structure would cost, and Mr. Kojetin is not sure of those total prices. 8. What is the salvage value of the current installation? Mr. Kojetin is not sure at this time. Mr. Johnson asked if the Council was going to vote on this. Mr. Kojetin said if we indicate an interest in purchasing it, there would be further negotiation. Mr. Johnson asked if at the right price we would want to get involved in this type of business? Mr. Lord and Mr. Valliere both said yes. Mr. Fee said we still do not have enough information. It seems that the potential risks outweigh the revenue we can make from it. Mr. Christianson asked what we are receiving from rentors from this facility. Mr. Kojetin said about $10,000 per year. Andy Montgomery MOVED THAT THE PARK BOARD REJECT THE PURCHASE OF THE DOME AT THIS TIME BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF RISK INVOLVED VERSUS FIXED INCOME WE ARE RECEIVING NOW. Scott Johnson seconded the motion. Mr. Thayer asked what is the alternative to purchasing the dome. Mr. Kojetin said Golf Dome Associates are under contract for ten more years, so we would carry on as we have been. We are not sure if the new nine hole course will be completed in 1990 as expected. The purchase of the dome would have been a cushion if the new course is not ready. Mr. Fee said he doesn't know if it is worth the risk for a $30,000 revenue. Mr. Valliere said there are some down sides and up sides to the proposal. We cannot get insurance for the dome, but down the road he thinks it will make money. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. VII. ADJOURNMENT Jean Rydell MOVED TO ADJOURN AT 10:00 P.M. Itti Furlong seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED.