HomeMy WebLinkAbout1988-09-13 Park Board MinutesEDINA PARK BOARD
7:30 p.m.
September 13, 1988
Edina City Hall
MEMBERS PRESENT: Bob Christianson, Jim Fee, Mac Thayer, Itti Furlong, Jean Rydell
Andrew Montgomery, Bill Lord, Don Wineberg, Bill Jenkins, Scott
Johnson
STAFF PRESENT: Bob Kojetin, John Keprios, John Valliere, Stacey Kness
OTHERS PRESENT: Dr. John Hoyt, Mr. Roger Harrold
Mr. Christianson called the meeting to order at 8:00 p.m.
I. APPROVAL OF AUGUST 9, 1988, MINUTES
Jean Rydell MOVED TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE AUGUST 9, 1988, MEETING. Scott
Johnson seconded the motion. MOTION CARRIED. 'Mr. Montgomery questioned an item in
the minutes. Mr. Kojetin stated the majority of athletic associations were formed in
the 50s and 60s. The Soccer Association and Wrestling Association were formed in the
70s and 80s. Minutes stand corrected.
II. BRAEMAR GOLF COURSE (BOARD)
Mr. Christianson said the Braemar Golf Association has been formed, has appointed
members, and has requested that the Edina Park Board appoint a representative;
apparently as part of that request, they wish that the Edina Park Board give
"official" standing by participating in the Association's activities and accept what
they have done. From a procedural standpoint the issue is on the table, and it seems
that the matter has changed to a degree because as it was previously presented there
was not an association and now there is. The discussion is open on what we want to
do, if anything, with the proposal that we give official sanction to the Braemar Golf
Association, to what extent we should become involved, and if we should appoint a
representative to the Association.
Dr. Hoyt stated the Association has been formed. The prior motion and discussion
dealt with the Park Board approving the development or formation of a board. We have
done that. What we are asking of you is simply an indication on your willingness to
work with us by initiating the invitation to appoint a member of the Park Board. If
you wish to take any other form of action, that is up to you. We will be meeting 6
p.m. this Thursday at Braemar.
Mr. Christianson said he thinks as far as the membership of John Valliere and Joe
Greuppner, he does not see that it is a Park Board decision.
Mr. Kojetin said he usually appoints the person to the board. Generally he assigns
one of the staff people from his office to sit on the boards.
Dr. Hoyt said their two additional ex officio members at large have not been
appointed, and they would solicit Mr. Kojetin's advice on that.
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Mr. Christianson said that summarizes the status of the Association; he opened the
floor for discussion or motions.
Andy Montgomery MOVED TO ACCEPT THE BRAEMAR GOLF ASSOCIATION. Don Wineberg seconded
the motion.
Mrs. Rydell asked why would a Park Board member have to be appointed when there are
two city employees on the Board; there is not a Park Board member on any other
association board.
Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg to express his view.
Mr. Wineberg thinks if this is the will of the people at large at Braemar, he has no
objections to it.
Mr. Fee asked if he sees it as conflicting with the Park Board.
Mr. Wineberg answered no; if something came up that required Park Board approval, he
is sure they would do that.
Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg if he thinks these people would be taking advantage of a
power situation at Braemar in any way.
Mr. Wineberg said not to his knowledge. When we had the meeting a year ago and a
number of league members were present, he had strong feelings about non-residents in
leagues. That is his only concern.
Mr. Johnson asked if a resident has a problem regarding the management of the golf
course, i.e, excessive time is devoted to leagues, procedurally would that be handled
by the Golf Association and then the Park Board.
Mr. Christianson said as he perceives the operation of the golf course, John Valliere
is the manager who is taxed with the day to day operation. The general policies
relating to the golf course are established by the Park Board subject to approval or
disapproval by the City Council. To the extent that a problem is not taken care of
to the satisfaction of the person, it would first go to Mr. Kojetin. If it related
to a policy and not and administrative matter, it would come to the Park Board.
Mr. Montgomery stated the swimming pool has a board, the Historical Society has an
association, and the baseball complex has an association that uses it. He looks at
the golf course as one huge chunk of the City's investment that does not have an
association that gives feedback relating to that facility. He does not understand
why there is resistance to this Association.
Mrs. Furlong said she has come full circle on a lot of things. It is real important
for her to read carefully everything that has come to her. What you Mr. Montgomery
just said would have been her first inclination three meetings ago and is now at a
totally different point --not for the fact that you people want to help the golf
course because you know what is going on; she sees that as nothing but a healthy and
good intent. On the other hand, she thinks that it has implications structurally
that we are not even thinking about right now because we do not know what is down the
road. If the Association had not been made, she would have pleaded the case of
an Edina Golf Association rather than a Braemar Golf Association. The golfers do not
own the golf course. The golfers should not be in control of that facility.
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Whenever you have an association is formed with a special interest in mind, it does
carry more weight. When you have a special interest group in place, something will
happen and policies directly or indirectly will be made. She would rather see a golf
association that promotes golf than a Braemar golf club that looks at the interest of
the Braemar golfers. She was disappointed when she read the letter that said the
association was formed. The process that is working right now is working well. She
hopes that their intent plays itself out. She does not suggest that Park Board
appoint a board member to the Golf Association. Just by appointing someone does not
mean we are willing to work with your board. She is in opposition to the motion.
Mr. Montgomery asked if the baseball association (for example) is self centered.
Mrs. Furlong said a golf association would have one thing in mind, but it wouldn't be
tied to a facility.
Mr. Fee asked for Mr. Lord's and Mr. Jenkins' opinions.
Mr. Lord said these people have already formed their association and we have to
realize it and keep the doors open to these people. He does not think a'Park Board
member should be a member of their board because there are no precedents from other
boards.
Mr. Jenkins has a reservation on appointing a Park Board member.
Mr. Fee asked Mr. Wineberg if he thinks this has any more power than the Hockey
Association, for example.
Mr. Wineberg answered he does not think they have more power.
Mr. Kojetin referred to the information from the November 1977 Park Board Meeting,
"Athletic Associations Relationship with the Park Board and the Park and Recreation
Staff". He said there have been other times when people have become upset with a
particular board and have made their own board. Because the Park Board has
recognized the eleven associations as the governing body for their sport, it has
stopped the splintering of other groups. He believes we endorse one group to prevent
the splintering.
Mr. Kojetin mentioned that he had not been approached by the proposed golf
association before they were formed. He has spoken with Mr. Valliere but never any
of the board people.
Mr. Christianson said he thinks that is regrettable. He said to give this
association our blessing at this time is not wise; it may well create problems down
the line that will be more trouble than they are worth. He stated he believes the
system is working now. He said we have one of the finest public facilities in the
country; it is extremely well run.
Mrs. Furlong said if all a group who wanted Park Board's approval had to do was to go
ahead and do it, it would not be a good precedent.
Dr. Hoyt said the name "Braemar" Golf Association was picked because Braemar is the
only public course in the city. He has no problem with changing the name if it would
make a difference. He agrees with the concept of the Park Board not appointing a
member to the Golf Board. Dr. Hoyt suggests when the golf board meets on Thursday
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taken from September 13, 1988, Park Board minutes
that Mr. Kojetin be asked to serve as an ex officio board member or be invited to any
meeting. It was Dr. Hoyt's understanding that Mr. Kojetin had been contacted by
several people in the board. Dr. Hoyt apologized for not contacting Mr. Kojetin
prior to the formation of the Association.
Mr. Christianson asked for any additional discussion. He asked for a vote.
MOTION CARRIED. Itti Furlong, Jean Rydell, Bill Jenkins, Bob Christianson opposed
the motion.
III. DEKHOCKEY PROPOSAL FOR LEWIS PARK
Mr. Kojetin introduced Mr. John Griffith of Breakaway Dekhockey, Inc. Mr. Griffith's
company would like to rent Lewis Park for a commercial venture. They intend to make
money on it, and they intend to run a good, successful, recreational/leisure
program. Mr. Kojetin said this is important as a policy because we are getting into
different things that are coming up of starting to rent to different types of people.
Mr. Griffith said dekhockey is very big in the northeast part of the country. The
game is run similar to ice hockey except it is on a deck. It is played on top of a
special plastic surface. The equipment includes a stick with a wooden shaft and
plastic blade, shin guards, helmet, and a 2" diameter hollow ball. The ball is a
little bigger than a bandy ball but much lighter. There is no checking in the game.
Mrs. Furlong asked if this is a family sport or if it is very competitive.
Mr. Griffith said the leagues are divided into the following age divisions: 4-6
years, 7-9 years, 10-12 years, 13-15 years, 16-19 years, and over 17. For the youth
leagues there would be 12 games per season with three seasons during the year. The
participants sign up individually. Volunteer coaches help form the teams and work
with them through the season.
Mr. Jenkins asked what the relationship between Breakaway Dekhockey and the
Recreation Department would be.
Mr. Kojetin said they would run their own program; we would just rent the facility to
them.
Mr. Montgomery asked what dekhockey will do to the roller blade concept.
Mr. Kojetin said we have not been able to get the roller blade program started. We
would like to have a one year lease to try it out with a second year option.
Mr. Johnson asked what the registration fee is.
Mr. Griffith said in Pittsburgh they charge $30 per player for 12 games with 10 to 12
minute periods. The shin guards are about $10 per pair; the stick is $7-$8,and the
ball is $1. Any other protective pads or guards can also be used. Every player must
wear a helmet with full face cage or shield.
Mr. Johnson asked how many people participate in dekhockey in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Griffith said they have 110 teams per season with 10-12 players per team.
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Mr. Fee said there are a lot of people who would play hockey but do not skate that
this sport would be good for.
Mr. Keprios asked if the fee covers the leagues and jerseys.
Mr. Griffith said they would get sponsors to supply jerseys and usually fathers of
participants volunteer to coach.
Mr. Keprios asked about practice schedules.
Mr. Griffith said when teams practice against each other, the practices are free.
For individual team practice for players over 17 years old there would be a fee. In
Pittsburgh they pay $35/hour to practice.
Mr. Keprios said the concept is exciting. He said it looks great for kids who are
skaters and for kids who are not skaters. He was sold on the idea of dekhockey
because the asphalted rink at Lewis Park will have a purpose.
Mr. Jenkins asked if the rink is used for anything else at that time.
Mr. Keprios said no other activities are planned on the rink during those months.
Mr. Fee asked what the cost was to asphalt the Lewis Park rink.
Mr. Kojetin said it cost around $5,000. It was asphalted for a possible roller blade
program, and in principle it enables an ice rink to be made within a week and not the
traditional three to four weeks on regular ground.
Mr. Fee asked if this would be marketed through the Park Department.
Mr. Keprios said it would be listed in the calendar, but it would give a few details
and the name of a contact person. He mentioned the proposal to some Edina Hockey
Association board members and they thought it was a great idea.
Mr. Montgomery asked what the staff sees as the impact on spring sports.
Mr. Keprios said since there will be more than just a spring season, he doesn't see
it as diminishing any other programs.
Mrs. Furlong asked who covers liability when a private group rents a facility.
Mr. Griffith said their insurance would cover all the spectators and anyone getting
injured during the game.
Mr. Keprios said he is in support of the proposal but the only thing he questions is
having a schedule recreation activity at Lewis Park which has been a passive park in
the summer time. If we get negative feedback from the neighbors, we do have an out
at the end of the year. He thinks it is worth a try.
Mr. Johnson asked if the rental would include the rink and the warming house.
Mr. Keprios said it would include the warming house. They are in charge of all clean
up and facilities.
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Mr. Lord asked if it would impact the new Arena East and West.
Mr. Keprios said it would not impact it, but we could ask Larry Thayer.
Mr. Johnson asked if the Recreation Department will attempt to limit times to limit
impact.
Mr. Keprios said part of the agreement would be it would be March through November.
Mrs. Rydell said the spring league would start and finish before the other sports are
beginning.
Mr. Christianson said it is our responsibility to provide as many choices as possible
to people in the city.
Mr. Keprios said they many find that it is in their best interest to schedule around
our activities.
Mr. Johnson asked if there are any other youth opportunities run by a for-profit
operation.
Mr. Keprios said there seems to be a trend that the public sector is starting to get
into the private sector to get some monies to offset some of our deficits.
Mr. Wineberg asked if the $500 rental per month plus expenses is cut and dry.
Mr. Keprios said yes, that is the agreement.
Mrs. Furlong asked Mr. Montgomery to explain his comment on conflict with other
activities.
Mr. Montgomery said the kids can play both soccer and baseball without conflict until
the upper grades, and now this sport could provide a conflict.
Mrs. Furlong asked if it is the Park Board's responsibility to decide when certain
athletics can be played, or is it up to each association.
Mr. Kojetin said it is generally a staff decision.
Mr. Keprios said scheduling conflicts occur because in baseball, ability levels are
split at the same leagues. There is no way around that between soccer and baseball.
Jim Fee MOVED THAT THE PARK BOARD ENDORSE AND ACCEPT THE PROPOSAL AS PRESENTED BY
BREAKAWAY DEKHOCKEY, INC. AND ALSO ENCOURAGE THEM TO WORK WITH PARK DEPARTMENT
PERSONNEL IN SETTING UP AND ESTABLISHING PROGRAMMING AT LEWIS PARK FOR ONE YEAR AT
$500/MONTH WITH AN OPTION ON A SECOND YEAR. Jean Rydell seconded the motion. MOTION
CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Mr. Montgomery asked if this means we are giving up the facility.
Mr. Keprios said all we are doing is leasing the facility and giving up the rights to
use it.
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Mr. Kojetin said whenever that building is open, other people in the park can use the
restrooms.
IV. EVERGREEN BIBLE CHURCH PROPOSAL TO RENT ARNESON ACRES
Mr. Kojetin indicated the Evergreen Bible Church approached him requesting to rent
the Grange Hall on Sundays and Wednesdays. Mr. Kojetin denied this request. The
Church came back and asked about Arneson Acres Park. We really have not rented the
building on a year-round basis. We have never rented as a City to a church group.
They have approximately 30 people in the congregation with a possibility of 60 people
attending including family members. The capacity of the Terrace Room is 70 - 80
people. The Church proposed to pay the utilities. In 1987 the heat expense was
$547; electric $659; telephone $658. The electric bill was averaged because there
was not a meter at the building for about three months.
Mr. Fee asked if the Garden Council and the Historical Society generated any revenue
to cover expenses.
Mr. Kojetin said yes, they have committed that they would pay the utilities. We
could charge the Church $50 per day rental instead of having them pay utilities.
Mr. Lord asked why we would consider diverting from this schedule of rental fees.
Mr. Christianson asked if the Garden Council and the Historical Society have reviewed
this proposal.
Mr. Kojetin indicated he had discussed it with the Garden Council Monday, September 12
They did not seem against it.
Mrs. Rydell asked about separation of church and state.
Mr. Wineberg said this group is a new church. He asked if they have purchased ground
to build a church to grow into.
Mr. Kojetin said they have not purchased any land.
Mr. Wineberg said we should learn more about this group.
Mr. Lord asked why we would divert from the scheduled of rental fees.
Mr. Christianson said they either pay what we charge or they look somewhere else.
Mr. Montgomery said there should be some kind of discount when people want to use it
for 52 weeks a year.
Mr. Christianson said the Historical Society and the Garden Council are already
committed to covering the operating expenses, so this will not deter from that.
Mr. Kojetin said what we have to do is rent it to help support the building other
than the utilities for things such as general upkeep, painting, and so on.
Mr. Montgomery said you cannot charge a one -time -only rate for a year-long use.
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Mr. Christianson asked what the Community Center would charge for a comparable rental
on a year basis. He said the Community Center has established different rates for
different tenants. On a smaller basis a tenant would pay more than on a large basis.
Mr. Fee asked if we want the money.
Mrs. Furlong said we should watch out on who they are.
Mr. Wineberg said this is how a new church gets established; it rents a building and
starts up.
Mr. Johnson suggested that the staff get more information from the church group.
Mr. Christianson said it seems we have crossed the threshold of renting to private
enterprises. We should find out what the Community Center does charge on a
comparable basis.
V. 1989 FEES AND CHARGES
Mr. Kojetin indicated the Council asked the staff to increase their fees and charges
four to seven percent. The Council makes the final decision, but they like to have
the Park Board look at the fees and charges before they do.
Scott Johnson MOVED TO ADOPT THE 1989 FEES AND CHARGES AS PRESENTED. Jim Fee
seconded the motion.
Mr. Montgomery stated his disagreement with the proposed arena season ticket
increase. He said with an economy that is not great, these are not reasonable
increases. He said how much more can you get from the taxpayer of Edina.
Mr. Jenkins asked if these arena prices are comparable to other areas.
Mr. Kojetin said Mr. Valliere, Mr. Thayer, and Mr. MacHolda have checked with other
facilities to compare the golf course, arena, and swimming pool prices. We try to
stay in the upper half of fees and charges. Some areas we are higher, but we are
pretty close.
Mr. Lord said he understands the comments, but each individual manager has okayed
these numbers. We have to believe and trust their judgement.
Mr. Johnson asked if the staff and other board members feel there is a wide enough
difference between resident and non-resident fees.
Mr. Christianson asked Mr. Valliere what Edinburg Golf Course charges non -patrons for
18 rounds.
Mr. Valliere stated Edinburg had proposed to charge $20 but dropped to $17. They
have a different structure that allows a non-resident to buy a patron card at a
different price.
Mrs. Furlong asked Mr. Valliere why there isn't a non-resident fee separate and
higher than the resident fee at Braemar.
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Mr. Valliere said it is a policing nightmare, and 79 percent of our traffic is
patron. The numbers of non-residents is not that great.
Mr. Christianson asked why the golf course raised its prices such a small amount.
Mr. Valliere said his increases are four percent or even a little less. He said he
is coming off a year of tremendous revenue. The golf course is experiencing a very
profitable year, and he did not want to charge the golfer.
Mrs. Furlong said it makes sense but the arena's and the pool's increases are out of
line.
Mr. Montgomery said traffic at the pool has slowed so much that this increase will
surely slow it even more.
Mr. Wineberg said keeping the pool at the 1988 rate will not bring more traffic.
Mrs. Furlong said if the Council asked for a four to seven percent increase, why does
it jump so high now.
Mr. Christianson said the arena has not been raised for three years. Maybe it should
have been raised a little bit each year.
Mr. Montgomery said he does not want to be a part of a recommendation with some of
these increases.
Mr. Lord said how can we sit here and make these kind of decisions. We have to put
some faith in the managers' judgement.
Mr. Kojetin said each manager really looks at the market in the metropolitan area.
The thing that you can be flexible on is when you charge non-residents.
Mrs. Furlong said she still disagrees with three resident rates. When she had
studied with the Task Force on comparing other cities' fees and charges, she found
they were all over the place on participation fees. She doesn't think there is a
basis for comparison.
Mr. Lord said he would suggest having Mr. Thayer come in to make a presentation
before making a recommendation.
Mr. Christianson asked Mr. Kojetin the amount of time before Council required the
1989 fees and charges.
Mr. Kojetin said the Council would probably like to see the fees and charges Monday,
September 19.
Mr. Montgomery said there should not be an increase of more than 10 percent.
Mr. Johnson asked Mr. Kojetin if the overall impact would be seriously affected if
the resident rates were lowered at the arena and the pool.
Mr. Kojetin said the overall impact would not be affected.
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Andy Montgomery MOVED TO AMEND THE MOTION ON THE FLOOR BY LOWERING THE RESIDENT
FAMILY SEASON TICKET AT THE ARENA TO $55 AND THE RESIDENT INDIVIDUAL SEASON TICKET TO
$35 AND BY LOWERING THE RESIDENT FAMILY SEASON PASS AT THE POOL TO $46 AND THE
RESIDENT INDIVIDUAL SEASON PASS TO $30. Jim Fee seconded the amendment. AMENDMENT
PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.
AMENDED MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.
VI. OTHER
Mr. Kojetin indicated the Council received the appraisal of the golf dome, and the
Council discussion was tabled until Monday, September 19.
Mr. Lord said Mr. Richards suggested Park Board discuss this tonight.
Mr. Kojetin answered questions put to the Council by Mr. McFadden (see attachment).
1. Does the city now own any part of the dome? If so, what value? What is the
value of the remainder? Who owns the fence?
The City owns the building used as a picnic shelter valued at about $100,000. It
is rented to Golf Dome Associates for $6000 per year. The appraisers' value is
$620,000 excluding the building which includes electrical system, artificial
turf, concrete around the perimeter, heaters. Golf Dome Associates own the
fence.
2. Do we have any appraisal of the life expectancy of the dome?
Life expectancy is 12 to 14 years.
3. What is the status of the auxiliary heating unit that is necessary for operation
in cold weather?
Golf Dome Associates rents a portable heating system.
4. Is there an operating projection to include original cost, plus interest, plus
replacement cost, and does that projection show a profit or loss? How much rent
have we collected in five years.
We have collected at least $27,000 in three years. See attachment for
projections.
5. What is the cost of insurance coverage for fire and liability?
Golf Dome Associates pays $14,000
6. Are any repairs currently needed to operate the dome effectively?
No repairs are needed to operate the dome. There are some things that need
upgrading such as the revolving door.
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7. What would a brand new dome from scratch cost and how much more efficient would
it be?
The appraisers have two quotes of what a new structure would cost, and Mr.
Kojetin is not sure of those total prices.
8. What is the salvage value of the current installation?
Mr. Kojetin is not sure at this time.
Mr. Johnson asked if the Council was going to vote on this.
Mr. Kojetin said if we indicate an interest in purchasing it, there would be further
negotiation.
Mr. Johnson asked if at the right price we would want to get involved in this type of
business?
Mr. Lord and Mr. Valliere both said yes.
Mr. Fee said we still do not have enough information. It seems that the potential
risks outweigh the revenue we can make from it.
Mr. Christianson asked what we are receiving from rentors from this facility.
Mr. Kojetin said about $10,000 per year.
Andy Montgomery MOVED THAT THE PARK BOARD REJECT THE PURCHASE OF THE DOME AT THIS
TIME BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF RISK INVOLVED VERSUS FIXED INCOME WE ARE RECEIVING
NOW. Scott Johnson seconded the motion.
Mr. Thayer asked what is the alternative to purchasing the dome.
Mr. Kojetin said Golf Dome Associates are under contract for ten more years, so we
would carry on as we have been. We are not sure if the new nine hole course will be
completed in 1990 as expected. The purchase of the dome would have been a cushion if
the new course is not ready.
Mr. Fee said he doesn't know if it is worth the risk for a $30,000 revenue.
Mr. Valliere said there are some down sides and up sides to the proposal. We cannot
get insurance for the dome, but down the road he thinks it will make money.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
VII. ADJOURNMENT
Jean Rydell MOVED TO ADJOURN AT 10:00 P.M. Itti Furlong seconded the motion. MOTION
CARRIED.